Official West Hartlepool RFC

Good teams tend to be built on a 4 year cycle (this is where the All Blacks keep falling down as their cycle is a year out of sync with the World Cup) and require a constant supply of fresh new players with the correct skills in order to be developed into internationals.

The playing style of most clubs in our top 3 divisions inhibits this drastically.

There is very little attention paid to encouraging handling skills or enterprising play in English rugby.

"You only got to the final because Ireland had a terrible competition, they imploded and threw away a great chance to win the cup. Also, The All Blacks had one of their bad games, with Australia looking under done. "

Eh? That's like someone from rovers saying "well, west only got promoted because the other teams won less games than them". What you're actually saying in that paragraph is... England were better than those teams, which is why they got to the final.

Well yes, in logical terms any winner of a league wins because the others won fewer games! In a short knock out there is a better chance for the less able teams. For example Wasps lost more games than the others in the top four this year but in a short knock out were able to win the competition where they had proven to not be the best team over the length of the league season. On a bad day in a league you might lose to a lower team, it does not mean you will not win the league, in a short competition it would mean you are out. SO might point is that to get to the final is only proof of the vagaries of knock out sport as opposed to games over a longer period of time. England over the last two seasons, including the world cup, have not been that clever and seem to be in a downward spiral, accompanied by the boys in green. However, the Magners league seems to be a better ground for producing good players compared to the premiership, and gives hope for the future of the celtic nations. Ma I finally remind you that England did not win the 6 nations, indeed when was the last time?

When was the last time, well it certainly was more recent than when Ireland did...........................

If you look back over the last 8 years, England have won the 6 nations 3 times with Ireland winning a grand total of zero! Then if you look at the last 3 world cups (roughly within 8 years, 1999, 2003 & 2007) England have managed to get the quarter finals, win the world cup and then lose in the 2007 final. Then there is Ireland, never reached a final or even gone further than a quarter final. Then to rub salt in the wounds, Ireland do not even come in the top 8 of current rankings for the World Cup.

1st = Australia (Won x 2, Runner UP x 1, Third x 0, Forth x 1)
2nd = South Africa (Won x 2, Runner UP x 0, Third x 1, Forth x 0)
3rd = England (Won x 1, Runner UP x 2, Third x 0, Forth x 1)
4th = New Zealand (Won x 1, Runner UP x 1, Third x 2, Forth x 1)
5th = France (Won x 0, Runner UP x 2, Third x 1, Forth x 2)
6th = Wales (Won x 0, Runner UP x 0, Third x 1, Forth x 0)
6th = Argentina (Won x 0, Runner UP x 0, Third x 1, Forth x 0)
8th = Scotland (Won x 0, Runner UP x 0, Third x 0, Forth x 1)


If you base it on statistics, then Ireland are a country mile behind England at present in terms of performance when it counts. And even when England are under performing, they still manage to beat Ireland in this years 6 Nations. Although the English players in the Premiership are hardly showing the skills that the players show in the Super 14’s, I firmly believe Martin Johnson will develop a great team of coaches that will complement and progress the England squad to such an extent they can win the world cup in 2011. In terms of squad strength, I do think Ireland will start to struggle along with Scotland over the next few years.

In the last 5 years how many times has Ireland been a country mile away? HOw many times has a country with fewer rugby clubs in total than there are in Yorkshire gloriously defeated the mighty England?

By the way how the hell can you be above the All BLacks when the last few weeks have shown you to be apoor team on and off the field, where Ireland ran them close? Yes your table is really to be believed!

The table is fact and based on World Cup performances alone! Even the Puma's and Thistle's have a better record the Irish.

But based on the current IRB rankings for all test rugby, Ireland still rank below England as of 23rd June 2008.

IRB World Rankings:

1st= South Africa
2nd = New Zealand
3rd = Argentina
4th = Australia
5th = England
6th = Wales
7th = France
8th = Ireland

And how many times have the English beaten the Irish in the last five years?

Just warched Sharapova lose to a girl 153 places below her in the rankings. Sort makes my point about knock out competitions.

So much for the we are all local boys in Ireland. This was in the papers today.

Magners League champions Leinster have boosted their squad significantly for next season by acquiring southern hemisphere stars Rocky Elsom and CJ Van Der Linde.
South African Van Der Linde has signed a three-year deal from Super 14 side the Cheetahs, while 25-year-old Australian Elsom has agreed a one year deal with an option of another year. The Irish province also announced the arrival of Auckland Blues utility back Isa Nacewa, among others.

I may sound like a broken record but I still think England have learnt a lot from the past few years and will grow stronger because of it and to say now we have no chance in the next world cup is crazy. I do remember just before the last world cup and how England was written off.
I still think England’s problems are not on the field and it will not carry on much longer. I expect a big six nations from a very angry England team out to prove a point.

to progress in a world cup you've got to win matches when it counts, in a pressure situation. England did that in the last world cup after a slow start. Ireland couldn't manage it. I'm not claiming that England are a great team at the moment, but Ireland are hardly the bench mark for success at the moment. Every time Ireland lose a game the excuses come out from the players, if you listen to BOD, they've deserved to win every game they've played in the last 2 years, they've never made any mistakes. It's a bit like R&O's old match reports

GRD what is the point you are trying to make, England have a better record in the knock out competitions, have a better overall IRB ranking, have beaten Ireland the last time they played them (only as good as your last game……….) plus have an abundance of silverware since the game turned professional unlike Ireland.

So really the only argument you have is how many times have England beaten Ireland in last 5 years……………..I would be for England to lose to any team in the world a few times but then still win the World Cup and collect a few 6 nations trophies along the way.

Grievo is right about the problems now are off the field, but now Martin Johnson has been appointed things will certainly improve. When England went through a bad patch after the world cup in 2003 a lot of it was down to the loss of several key men through retirement or injury (Johnson, Back, Leonard, Wilkinson, Dawson, Greenwood, Robinson), then emphasised even further with Sir Clive Woodward leaving. That is a big transition period to absorb. So inevitably England hit a low but still managed a world cup final along the way, now they are stabilising the management side and have the pool of players to evolve quite rapidly into another great England team. Remember England was still missing a few key men against the All Blacks (Ellis, Wilkinson, Cipriani, Sackey, Easter, Dan Ward Smith, and Vickery).

Then there is Ireland………….who are coming to the end of a good (not great) 15 man team, but that is it, a 15 man team, they are not like the All Blacks, who have an amazing 30 man squad. The Churchill Cup proved that. Ireland do not seem to have up and coming world class stars to replace the current star Irish players. I might be wrong, but who will replace BO’D or O’Gara?

I'm not really concerned about Irelands problems (I think O'Sullivan managed to totally mismanage what has been a terrific squad over the past few years)but rather, as GRD alluded to, our own inability to actually play rugby with the ball in our hands.

NZ have shown that first phase possession is not as important as it used to be as they constantly took the ball off us in loose situations and then punished us with clinical handling and finishing.

We are generating overblown gym rats who then turn to startled rabbits when they find themselves with the ball in hand in open space.

Most disappointing for me was the way the U20's lost their World Cup Final as they just battered at NZ until exhausted and then NZ just turned on the skill to hammer us.

Wooha! Yes you are only as good as your last game, England trounced by an under performing All Blacks!

I ask again, how many times have England lost to Ireland in the last two years? By the way, at present there are 38% of palyers in the premiership England qualified, in Ireland the IRFU has strict limits on foreign players. THat is godd, high quality players who will teach the irish boys, not over the hill ex internationals here to make a buck and run.